As usual, my buddy Brettcajun stirred up a hornet’s nest with his recent post. He got quite a bit of fall out over it and attempted to cover with another post, which fell equally as flat. In a nut shell, Brett was ranting about how Kurt Hummell’s character [1]from the TV show Glee is a nelly limp-wristed sissy who deserved what he got because he couldn’t man-up and be a real man. The irony of the person doing the complaining was not lost on anyone mind you. *g*
Sadly, his feelings; however shameful and wrong they were, are not all that uncommon. For my .02, I think the problem is not only ignorance but our growling failure to understand the difference between being attracted to someone vs accepting of them. [2]Forgetting for a moment, our battle for equality started due in large part to these stereotypes. Many of us fall prey to the foolish idea that to be accepted we have to conform and/or fit in. As if such behavior would make those who hate us hate us any less. That ideology has never worked so why it continues to flourish is anyone’s guess.
While ignorance can be forgiven, it can only be forgiven to a point. You cross the line when you go from disliking someone because they fit a stereotype you detest to actively condoning violence against them. Knowing Brett, I doubt he meant to encourage real harm but that doesn’t change the facts. He openly condoned violence against one of our own simply because said person was effeminate. This type of thinking simply cannot go unchallenged and uncorrected. TV character or not, we are seeing this same scenario play itself out all too often in real life in schools all over the nation. Even worse, some of the victims have turned to suicide to avoid being bullied. All because they are different. To his credit, Brett took his lumps. Quite a few of his commenters raked him over the coals and rightfully so.
A few commenters spoke up in support of Brett. Many of their arguments are the same reasons those who hate us continue to do so. Of course, you have to be able to see beyond your own short-sightedness and insecurities to see such an irony. Condoning violence against others because you hate qualities they represent [3]qualities we often hate in ourselves does not make you a man. If anything, it makes you a coward. And I will tell anyone, friend or foe, the same to their face.
Then there is the attraction issue. More and more, as a culture we are beginning to see attraction and acceptance as the same thing. In a desperate effort to fit-in and feel like we belong, we have begun to marginalize ourselves into sub-cultures based not only on attraction but acceptance. Whether it be twinkies, daddies, leather, drag, gym-bunnies, bears, etc, we lock ourselves into labels meant to free us. We then turn on those who don’t represent our now rigid view of how others should be based on our attraction. IMHO, this is a dangerous path that makes us no better than those who seek to deny us equality. While it can be expected, to a degree, in a culture as sexually obsessed as we are, it does not excuse said behavior. Just because I happen to fit into one or more sub-cultures doesn’t mean I can now pass judgment on those who do not.
I may not be physically attracted to someone who is overly flamboyant or naturally effeminate but I will defend their right to be with my last breath. I will say this though. I’d sooner stand by their side than anyone who would seek to tear them down out of misplaced angst, fear, or ignorance.
While I don't condone any violence against anyone different, and I think anyone has the right to behave however they want…
… Don't you also think that sometimes overly flamboyant gays sort of invite the trouble and drama? It just seems to me that some of the behavior is just done precisely to "poke the bear".
@cb ~ that same failed argument can be applied elsewhere. A woman dresses sexy is inviting someone to rape her? Sorry, no. Even if it is an act, who am I, you, or anyone else to tell them they can't be what they want? Or worse, resort to violence because your fragile manhood is threatened.
Right on, Moby.
I'm a big boy… I can take anything you or anyone else can dish out. In fact, I am happy that something I wrote stirred up a lively discussion in the moribund blogworld. It must have been a doozy, because the shit hit the fan and is now featured on a total of four blogs… all experiencing an increase in ratings and comments. I got 58 (mostly LONG) comments on my blog alone.
I have absolutely no regrets for expressing my opinion. The TV character of Kurt makes me cringe. One thing you must not forget… Kurt is a TV character… not a real person. I would never advocate a real person get beat up by a bully.
And THAT Marjorie… just so you know… and your children will someday know… is the point that you and others conveniently looked past.
I stand by my blog post. I am not apologizing for expressing my viewpoints.
Brettcajun (2007 BLOG OF THE YEAR, Best Gay Blogs)
@Brett ~ I see you ego is still in the way. Sad. Everyone gets it that Kurt is not a real person. Its the only reason I haven't taken you out of my feed list. It is YOU who are missing the point. Kurt represents a lot of real life people and whether you meant it or not, you vocally advocated said people being bullied and even assaulted. You got bent out of shape because someone once referred to you as a pocket fag. You wouldn't survive one day in Kurt's world.
And standing behind your admittedly insecure behavior, makes you a child not a man. I expect to never see you whining on your blog about being mistreated ever again after this.
Reference: ego still in the way
LOL. Hey, I've been known to throw punches when my pride gets injured. Would you expect anything less from me? Exactly. 😉
@Brett ~ Yes, sweetie, I know you enjoy the drama and the attention but this is much bigger than your blog or ego. Kids are dying in the real world over this stuff. I mean it, this is literally one of the worst things you've ever said in my opinion.
I went and read Brett's post, but not all the 58 some comments. So maybe my comments are redundant 🙂 However since I read your blog, I'm posting on your post 🙂
The irony of the post for me (as an anthro geek) is how we define and decide on what a "man" is. I think this is MORE of an issue in the gay community than it is in the hetero community honestly, because of the large amount of gay male types there are. We don't neatly fit into any one stereotype (in spite of Hollywood) or idea as the heterosexual man might.
For Brett, his idea of a "man" clearly seems to be in line with the mainstream hetero definition, drinking beer and watching sports (while wifey takes care of the cooking and kids – sorry had to throw that in!) For most heteros, this is what a man is: sports, beer, muscles, cars. Anyone or anything else is "less than a man."
Basically Brett is reinforcing the age old stereo type of what it is to be a man in America. Make no mistake though, some (many?) of those same "real men" will still beat your ass with a lead pipe cause you like sucking cock, no matter how much football you watch or beer you drink.
Brett's statement about being OUT with Kurt however is the most interesting (and confusing) to me . . . "I would be too embarrassed to take him to a football game. The moment he started acting all nellie, I would have a sudden urge to ditch him." . . . . I would wonder why that is? Is it because he isn't "a real man," or the fact that you are hanging out with him makes you less of a "real man?" Afraid of being outed in a large group of "real men"? I don't read Brett's blog enough to try and guess the answers, but that statement is huge to me and is at the root of his dislike for Kurt.
There is actually a good documentary out there called "The Butch Factor" which deals with this issue, what it is to be a man in the gay world. For the most part it deals with manly men that I'm sure Brett would get along with 😉 However one of the best points made by some of these men is that while they may be what America thinks of as "a real man," they feel the nellie queens are the real men because they cannot in any way shape or form pass as straight in everyday life, and therefore are the ones that have to deal with the Dave's of the world beating and hating on their asses every day.
Just read thru the posts and comments. This sure is a clusterfuck.
A couple of things jump out at me immediately:
— A lack of self-awareness. Masculinity/Femininity is variable among men and women. Here, it seems that who I perceive to be 8's on the 'Nellie Scale' are having problems with the 10's. A healthy dose of 'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you' is in order. It really is as simple as having respect for other human beings, even those that are different.
— A lack of boundaries. In general, the behavior and/or appearance of others has no bearing on anyone else. I own my shit; you own your shit. My shit isn't your shit; your shit isn't my shit. It reminds me of a friend I had many years ago that was M2F transgender. Their physical characteristics were such that she couldn't really pass as a woman in her appearance. Always looked like a man in a dress and wig despite her best efforts. She went with us on a social trip to the theater one afternoon. Several of the others in our group expressed their discomfort in 'being seen' with her. I didn't get it. Her behavior and appearance had nothing to do with me so why did they feel it had any reflection on them? I counted her as a friend which was the only thing that I really would've had to own, and I would have done so without hesitation. To my first point, the fact that most of us were gay guys going to see "Mamma Mia" and that we stuck out like a sore thumb seemed lost on those with the insecurities. I'm sure that there were as many in the audience that had a problem with us as there were with her. Yet I doubt that she was uncomfortable being seen with them.
If someone acts in a way I don't particularly care for, unless threatening, I generally take my cue from Joy Behar, "So what? Who cares?" 🙂
Bravo Moby! Bravo! You said it better than I ever could have! I agree 100% with everything you said Moby!!! I think what some of the non-effeminate men don't understand is the effeminate men just "are that way" and aren't putting up a performance. They can't change who they are or how they act any more than we can – and should not be asked to do so either! I know several that are "swishy and effeminate" and trust me they would not be doing that just for kicks – they have to deal with a lot more criticism over their "apparent" gayness than those of us that "fly under the radar" and escape the ridicule. They are my friends and I'm proud to be with them were ever we go! I'll stand by them and they'll stand by me because we are friends and that's what friends do! Again, Bravo Moby – well said!!!
There are a lot of take aways from Brett's post, I think – but what one thing I did was that Brett didn't like that Kurt didn't stand up for himself.
I get the bullying part and not condoning the violence, but in the show, Kurt IS a bully. He's snarky and manipulative when it comes to his own gain. He can still be effeminate and get the job that needs to be done with the bully. He's hardly not unresourceful.
Yes, Brett talks about in his video rebuttal about standing up to and punching the bully, but punches aren't always physical. Kurt's character could take the bully down, just like he has all his other 'enemies' when he doesn't get his way.
It's actually a misstep for the show when you think about it. "It Gets Better" when you just transfer schools and let the bully win is the message they are currently sending to all these gay teens. Maybe that will change with other episodes, but right now, that IS the message.
…and even if these teens could transfer, there is no real safe haven school the way 'Glee' portrays.
The character of Kurt IS manipulative. Everything Kurt does is to get into another's pants. He tried to also get into Finn's pants. How did that turn out? He is now using the cover of "being bullied" to transfer to another school and stalk YET ANOTHER good looking guy. That creeps me out. It should creep you out. I'm thinking some of those tears were Crocodile tears. His poor Dad and new mother couldn't take their honeymoon to fund his stalking. Tsk. Tsk. Kurt is a selfish stalking bitch.
Is Kurt whiney? Sure? Has he thrown tantrums, sure. But I don't think I've ever seen him as the evil queen from Snow White that you're making him out to be 🙂 I mean if he was so heartless, he wouldn't have thrown the Wicked competition the way he did, cause he wouldn't have cared about the consequences for his dad.
His crush on Finn was that, a crush. It's not like we all haven't been there. I mean I guess Mercedes also STALKED Kurt around for a whole year too then 😛
He also did not bring up the transfer from what I remember, his parents did. And he was already dating, I mean STALKING, the other guy as is. So it's not like he had to transfer to "get in his pants."
I think you are reading into Kurt way more than others. I think you were the one that a few posts ago said this was just a TV character. Now suddenly he's the Sarah Palin of McKinley High!
OPEN YOUR EYES. Don't be a sheep. Kurt is a stalker and should not be looked up to. If you want someone to look up to, may I suggest Sue Sylvester? THAT is someone who deserves every damn trophy she has won. Sue Sylvester ROCKS!
First and foremost, I'm not looking up to anyone on Glee as any kind of role model. However for impressionable young kids out there, I think Glee is an important show. I (we) never had anything like this on TV to tell us "your okay, your not a freak." Meanwhile you are reinforcing the notion to beat the shit out of Kurt cause you can't handle his sparkle. You are driving us back to the 80s whether you admit it or not.
I honestly think you are vilifying Kurt in an attempt to cover your own ass. You sir are a powerful speaker, it's a wonder you never went into parliament (that was from Christmas Carol, it might have been to gay for you, I thought I should translate). You have mastered the art of misdirection. Make the other guy look evil incarniate to cover your own flaws. It's not working except on those who worship you for your body. Some of us can REALLY REALLY REALLY see past that (Am I being a snarky enough nellie queen for you?) Yes I'll admit, woof your hot. But unfortunately then you open your mouth . . . . well you seem to like stereotypes so much, fill in the blank here baybe!
In all seriousness, I'm not as girly as Kurt is, I'm not as HETERO as you, I'm somewhere in the middle. But I was called a fag from 3rd grade on. I really wonder as Moby put it you could have ever walked in my shoes or Kurt's. I cannot hide unlike you. In spite of your wise advice, no matter how much I go to the gym, i'll never be a big and muscular "manly" guy like you. It is clear I suck cock and like it. I have had to deal with teasing and torment my whole life. Eventually I stopped trying to pretend, confirm and hide it. If people don't like me for me, they can fuck off. My philosophy is I graduated high school, therefore I am not forced to be in the same room as anyone who won't tolerate me anymore. It's sad that i have to include a fellow gay like you.
You are ashamed to take Kurt to a football game, take home to mom, blah blah blah. I've read all your posts and then some. Frankly the stuff you spew is the stuff our haters spew. "I don't mind that you're gay, just don't shove it in my face, keep it in the privacy of your bedroom." Pin a Palin pin on you buddy, cause they got you under their spell! I wonder if you'd be ashamed to be gay outside any safe world you built, be it the Castro, the Gayborhood, or North Bourbon Street. I wonder if you'd be ashamed to even wear a wedding ring for fear one day to have to explain to someone your not married to a woman. From everything you've put on your blog that I've read, I'd say you were.
Your latest post said "you get it," but clearly you don't. You in that entire post still misdirected and insulted the flaming, effeminate and sparkle gays and made THEM the problem, not you. Oh and honey, REALLY, I saw those dancing videos you post. Clutch those pearls GURL! This is still your problem frankly, own up to it.
Sorry there were a lot of gramatical errors in my post lol. It's late, I've been drinking, I was fired up!
Dustin, you rock! And Brett, you still don't get it!
I still think this was a ploy be Brett to get hits on his blog.
I did apologize to BRett on his blog. I got too fired up, and alcohol loosened my tongue a bit too much. I went way overboard with the personal attacks. I'm really not that much of a bitchy confrontational person in real life. In many ways, I am probably a lot like Brett. I will go out of my way to avoid the confrontation. I don't like the drama. That however is how I end up exploding, cause I hold too much in 🙂 I could have made my points without getting snarky and personal.
However I do still stand by my points. If people want to conform to what others want in order to make those people comfortable, that is their choice. However I will not conform myself back into the closet. On that level, if I am being confrontational and making people uncomfortable, so be it. Only by putting ourselves as gay men (and gay couples) out there for people to see, which will make some people uncomfortable, will we win our rights. So for those who want to conform and fit in with everyone else, so be. For those of us who get out there and make people see us and face us . . . we'll be the ones living in the states where gay marriage is legal 🙂
I said "invite the drama" not "invite harassment".
I think the more flamboyant gays act and dress that way precisely because they get off o. Tr attention it drums up– positive and negative.
And yes, I think a woman who dresses sexing or provocatively does it to get noticed and oogled.
I don't think she wants to be raped any more than a flamboyant gay wants to be bullied. But both want the attention- and sometimes that can have disastrous consequences.
Not trying to be a hater– just seeing it from a practical standpoint.
I hated high school. There's a bit of Kurt in me. I see it, as did others. I was bullied. Why didn't I "man up"? I was afraid. I could (can) see the Kurt in me, and I didn't like it. That was 44 years ago. I've seen videos of Moby. I can see a bit of the Kurt in him, too. He wears it well. To sum up, what I really want to say is, Moby, you freekin' ROCK. I admire and respect you so much. Thank you for being here.